The problem Iran has with the US also goes back to the 40s and 50s when we murdered a democratically elected government and installed a dictator then proceeded to assist him in brutally repressing his own people.

The problem that Muslims have with us also goes back to the 40s when we, under the influence of diaspora Jews bulldozed hundreds of thousands of Palestinian homes so that Jews could take their land and create the modern state of Israel.

Each of these problems with each of these members of the “Axis of Evil” is a direct consequence of our own past actions. Some going back as far as 60-70 years others as recent this decade where our actions in Iraq effectively made Iran the dominant power in the region (and now you sheep bawl and bail about how Iran is so dangerous… thank George Bush and the Neo Cons and Zionists for that one) and where our support of Israeli settlements on Palestinian land fuel terrorism, and where turn of policy in 2001 effectively allowed North Korea leverage for all sorts of sabre rattling.

Clean your own house before you go after anyone else. We’d have a lot more credibility on nuclear disarmament in regards to BOTH Iran and North Korea if we ourselves weren’t shielding the nuclear armament in Israel. Do you really think any of those nations in the Middle East are going to give up their nuclear ambitions with 3 countries in their own back yard including Israel who has not rules out a first strike has them?

THINK you damn sheep. I love the USA but I wish we could deport all you retards somewhere else

America has done its fair share of stupid things, but to completely dismiss the nature of what these posters ALONE suggest about the North Korean Government…

Face the facts: the North Korean DICTATORSHIP (Ironic, the full name of of N.Korea is the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea) is using military propaganda to incite the citizens against not JUST the US, but the western civilization in general. We’re talking about terrorism tactics here, people, not “fair points”. They don’t actually seem willing to really negotiate with just the US either, it seems all 1st world countries who are allied with the US are all of a sudden enemies.

Think of the images being presented – they may have reason to hate the US, but these posters show that they are indeed no better than the US – they resort to violence, they resort to cruel, underhand tactics. They play on people’s emotions. They don’t allow their own citizens to make informed decisions.

From what I understand (It may be just my view), the US, and every other country nowadays is more than willing to just put up arms, after all, such countries are primarily run by the people (I mean, they (I’m not American) got Bush out of the damn White House). However, such factions of terrorism such as the Taliban, and indeed, even N. Korea who take a hardline, military approach for seemingly no reason do not allow such peaceful co-existence in the world.

That really puts things in perspective.

Anyway I’ve finally reach the end of the thread after two hours of intense reading, *phew*, I pretty much realised that people are taking turns to smack each other face using more or less the same arguments.

Here’s a summary:

The anti-Americans keep saying that US made big mistakes, and should stop bothering with other’s affairs without finding out the truth. The Sudan factory whatever is just one of the many examples

The pro-Americans keep saying that the US did more good than bad, and a country that is actually doing something to make the world a better place should not be condemned by countries that aren’t doing a thing at all. Maybe if the US stop doing so much, they’d commit less mistakes too, and people won’t be blaming them.

Maybe you should start working our arguments from here and stop repeating yourselves.

this is just a source for mr.bush’s offshore shit

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0422-06.htm

and bitch about U.S. and the U.K. and all the other MDC’s in the world but be happy you have what you have, and even if we are fucked up countries that doesn’t make everyone in them fucked up, just because Hitler was controlling Germany in WWII did every German want to murder jews and burn babies? no.

It makes me so sad, when people can be so sick, that they can’t tell the true from the false. They just believe what they are told…like goats…just like goats…because if you don’t constantly shepherd them, they will revert to bad behavior…as if they don’t think at all…and if they do think, they are certainly not thinking of taking personal responsibility for what they did, they are thinking of ways to blame their consequences on somebody else. An exidtance devoid of honor or virtue.

If I am attacking my sister, and my dad helps my sister separate herself from me, by giving me a good whipping, and putting me on restriction, I would be sore, sure. I’d seethe for a while, then…I’d think, well…I was kind of whopping on my sister and well…really bullying her around. That isn’t so good to do to people. She deserves to live her life her way and I really shouldn’t have done that in the first place…I guess that whipping was needed because if I had continued, I might have killed her.

What N Korea is doing essentially is blowing my mind…it’s playing victim to the consequences of their own actions. Holding somebody accountable is not abuse…you want to have free trade? Be nice. You want to have an army? Be nice. Be nice…that makes us imperialists?

hey, im getting mixed answers as i look up, what exactly is chinas path? are relations deteriorating?

Many Americans don’t seem to realize that when we talk about “tragic mistakes” that their country has committed, innocent human lives (often thousands at a time) are lost. And for what? To make America “safer”? No, usually to help someone profit financially or to advance a personal agenda. Osama bin Laden WAS on good terms with the US (including Bush administration officials). So was Saddam. Who do you think sold him the materials and helicopters he used to gas the Kurds? (And which political party do you think voted down an attempt in the late 1980s to prevent that sale?) Come on guys, wake up. Just because you are presented with a convenient, rosy account of history, it doesn’t mean you should believe it. There’s a bigger world out there.

As for the US-bashers I’ve seen on this board, you are even worse. At least the other guys offer some cogent arguments. You, on the other hand, are throwing out all kinds of mindless slander that you proffered from some neo-marxist website. News flash: The Jews didn’t get phone calls to avoid coming to work on 9/11. And Iran isn’t the cute puppy that you would have it be. (The last statement is being proved all too true as I write this.)

The US has done some INEXCUSABLE things, and it is high time Americans started questioning them. (In fact, this should be done with some haste, because China is on its ascendancy. Woe be to all of us if the newly-empowered Chinese find a hostile America in their path.) I am happy to see on my trips to the US that this questioning IS beginning to take place (although you won’t see it much on TV).

But in questioning the motives of the worst Americans, we must be careful not to blindly attack everything that is American. Because then you fall into the hands of some wacko like “Dear Leader”.

twit.

everyone, the usa haters, the korean-despot sympathists all the way to the gun toting backwood armchair hardons that think america IS god.
needs.
to.
calm.
down.
i am an american. by birth. but america is the central hub of ethic soup. therefore, american i may be, but also scottish, german, native american indian, and asian as i found out lately. and that only goes back two gens. german of course is the only identifiable trait i carry what with the dark hair, and blue eyes. and scottish prevails in my inhuman ability to “inhale” the spirits. levity aside? everyone should take a step back and view the world from a WORLD view. we are ALL made up of the same junk. i serve in the U.S. military, yet i harbor no love for many american policies. my great grandfather migrated here after world war 2. he was a german army engineer. thats right MY bloodline served under the iron cross in ww2. and guess what, my gg DESERTED because he and four others refused to carry out order handed down, and knew, like may others did then, that they would be put down as insubordinates. (those orders were of horrible nature, your imagination would probably be accurate) i grew up on the horror stories. told to me by a man, like MANY of the soldiers fighting for the fatherland, that signed up to stay fed. to feed a family and recieve the meager pittens (yea i know thats not how you spell it) that military service guaranteed. becasue if he didnt? his family would be in those camps as the “unwanted”. he fought for th eman next to him. like i do. and like him he maintained a moral heart. so when he couldnt do what was asked of him because it was WRONG. EVIL. he bailed, he forged some orders and got the hell out of dodge. that baby poster up up top? i would exile myself if my comm ever passed down an order like that. but i cant speak for everyone i serve with. nor could my gg, as history can tell you.

do you care about my family tree, probably no. but i say this all for two reason. one, man is independant by nature. he will always think that he is better off and better suited to be his boss, than his boss is. he is a creature that will kill another for is belongings. KILL, a man becuse his god has a different name. i say will sparingly. what i really mean is capable of. we are capable of anything. we can either blast those who have it better, worse, easier, harder whatever. or we can condemn those who GOVERN us to “evil” status handed to them by the world. get it, its in the word GOVERNMENT, as in they GOVERN the populace. so two? if you dont like the one youre under, get the f**k out and move onto whatever pastures you preach are better, becuase you are OBVIOUSLY not contributing to ANY kind of solution here, just the problem. (hence the gg ‘dote) see the great thing about this country is, as previously stated, you are allowed to say these things. you are allowed to blast them, hate them, threaten them. and noone stops you. becuase you are free. you are not free in the nation stated above. ie. Nkorea, iran, irag, afgahn…. whatevs. this nation with all its flaws is stil world renown as “the free world”. free of any kind of gustapo, religious persecutions, taxations without representation, the whole nine yards. flawed? (wrongul arrest, KKK, health care discrepncies, corrupt and greedy politicians) yes. see; HUMAN. but no nation has more bleeding hearts. no nation has written laws forbidding the denial of water to a stranger on a hot day. i repeat that, it is illegal in the state of AZ to deny a stranger a glass of water. no nation is TRYING HARDER. to those that challenge that, enlist. we are flawed by our design, with the free will to do nothing but harm. but wake up everyone. we are capable as a SPECIES to do so much good. i believe in christ, you believe in ALLAH? cool, how is that working out for you. i guess ill have a beer and my freind will have orange juice. who gives a sh*t? you cant eat pork? damn, cuz bacons sh*t good pal, no worries though, heart disease and high cholesterol arent for everyone.

point is folks, we are ALL of us, floating along this water ball together. monkeys, lions, bunnies, deer, LEAVES… they all so-exist. humans and humans alone, wage war for personal gain. when you come on here and hate just to hate, you are a desease. facts this, lies that. who gives a sh*t, i am a medic. was a cop on the outside, and will be a teacher when i go home. and guess what, i would give you cpr regardless of who you pray too. i will save your life regardless of gender, or ethnicity. i will protect you, no matter what your politics, becuase its the right thing to do. start looking out for one another people, becuase one thing that ALL of our histories ahve in common is this. local changes. national decress. revolutions and reforms that have changed the world, all started at our level right here. the COMMON man. (or woman, :)) enlightenment is strived for, not given, but its the simpleton that can change the world. hitler was a painter, stalin parents were peasents – exiled five times, roosevelt couldnt walk, and einstein was a patent clerk that dropped out of GRADE school.

hitler or eienstien folks, make your bed and sleep in it. but be wary, anger is most dangerous in the hands of the retaliation. history will judge you, no matter what language its written in.

The goat is cool man… ;-)

So, here is some of our propaganda from the past:

“Ronald Reagan is enemy number one to the district of Tutrakan” /now, Tutrakan is a small town at the Danube river; and i frankly doubt if Reagan has ever heard about it/.

“Every egg – a bomb, and every hen – a flying fortress against the aggressors” /a sign in a poultry farm/

“All communists under the ground!” /a sign in front of a mine/

“All insane – in the fight for peace” /a sign in a mental home/

“Students, economize the leftovers! They are for you!” /a sign in a cafeteria in a university campus/

and etc.

Poor North Koreans, they are wasting their lives in this communist nightmare.

Here is a wikipedia link to some ww2 American Propaganda

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_propaganda_during_World_War_II

Some of you may also be interested in this basic wikipedia link about North korean communication:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_in_North_Korea

It states that:

-In November 2002, mobile phones were introduced to North Korea and by November 2003, 20,000 North Koreans had bought mobile phones. On May 24, 2004 however, mobile phones were banned .

-Radio and television must be modified to only receive government stations. These modified radios and televisions should be registered at special state department. They are also subject to inspection at random. Both Radios and Televisions come with a sealed label to prevent tampering. The removal of the official seal is punishable by law.

-Internet access is Illegal in North Korea

I think that this forums discussion could improve out of sight if more people decided to post facts AND REFERENCE THEM, rather than just spout off opinions.

After all, opinions are destructive in nature, only causing anger amongst everyone. However factual discussions can be constructive.

I know that my information is only wikipedia, but it reveals some basic facts.

I have yet to meet an American I truly did not like, or who desired to bomb Iraq for fun. Quite the opposite. Even those americans I have met that supported several republican views I disagreed with were amazing, well natured people.

I am aware that the US administration has messed up quite a bit. Michael Moore and Chomsky have been cited in this heated debate. I would not believe for a second that the facts they present are entirely unbiased, nor would I now vouch for mainstream media. Or any other kind of media. I KNOW certain things. I know how the US has harmed as well as healed other countries. I think if you bomb a country then move in and rebuild you can not take credit for the second without admitting forever the shame of causing harm in the first place. Murder is not a mistake you can cover up, just one you can avoid in the future.

What if the states did not meddle in foreign affairs as much? Some countried might be tremendously bankrupt right now, others might no have any external debt. Some might have been blown up by internal conflict, others might have figured it out ON THEIR OWN, and be o the process of recovering from the damage they themselves caused their own country. Other countries might be doing just fine.

The US is much to big and complex to say that North America is the devil…I’d be the hypocrite, I hold in high esteem many people there. Most political and military actions come from the government, and while it represents it’s country, it is made up of individuals, who in turn can make mistakes, can try to do their best or try to swindle the country.

Government is made of people, who will be biased one way or another, for better or for worse. Some will likely want to start a war, not send in their own children, but force service unto the lower classes, and then try and profit from a resulting massacre by bringing “capitalism” to the country. then will likely tell the country “your welcome”. Others will probably see that with all the resources, with the sheer size and numbers of industry, labor force, knowledge and science stemming from the US people as a nation the world can be made better. Those people know they have knowledge and wisdom to pass on so that others can benefit from it.

And of course, there will be those who think that their countries should be left alone, as much as possible, and left to settle their internal affairs on their own, as should the US.

In my country I have seen manifestations of the three points of view I considered here. It is hard to think of free help, without something (oil?) in return. It is hard to think of a relatively healthy nation not aiding those that could use a hand, “out of the goodness of their heart”. It is understandable to live and let live, and focus on self improvement and wish the same of others.

With all that said, well… what’s done is done, painful as it might be in some cases, we should ask HOW CAN WE HELP NOW? help our own country, help our neighbor, help our own surroundings and the people in them.

obbop.wordpress.com/

To all those against America in this message board who are complaining about the US in the Middle East:
THAT’S WHY WE NOW HAVE BARRACK OBAMA.
:P :]